After luxury sports watches became a huge trend and became a standard, dress watches are gaining attention as a new trend. This classic genre, which was once somewhat difficult to use, has now dramatically evolved to become more practical. The January 2024 issue (Vol. 110) of Chronos Japan revisited this new era of dress watches. This feature article has been republished on webChronos. This article features a special conversation about dress watches between Naoya Tobita of NAOYA HIDA & CO. and Masamasa Hirota, editor-in-chief of our magazine.
Photographs by Yu Mitamura
Edited and written by Tomoshige Kase
Edited & Text by Tomoshige Kase
[Article published in the July 2024 issue of Kronos Japan]
Naoya Tobita × Masamasa Hirota
What is a dress watch? In today's world, where our lifestyles as watch wearers are changing dramatically and watch genres are becoming increasingly borderless, it is extremely difficult to define it in one word. We invited Naoya Tobita, of NAOYA HIDA & CO., which is described as "modern vintage watches," to join our magazine's editor-in-chief, Masamasa Hirota, as we trace the evolution of dress watches, understand their current state, and predict their future.
Designs that have been discussed in terms of clothing are being freed from old customs.
Since the 1990s, he has worked for several foreign trading companies, where he was in charge of sales and marketing. After serving as the representative in Japan for FP Journe and Ralph Lauren Watches & Jewelry, he founded NH WATCH in 2018, where he serves as representative director.
Hirota The theme of this event is "How have dress watches changed over time?" The reason we invited Tobita is because we believe that one answer to this question is the NAOYA HIDA & CO. watch.
Tobita Thank you. The evolution of old and new dress watches... Hmm, where should I start? (laughs) Looking back at history, it is said that the transition from pocket watches to wristwatches occurred between World War I and World War II. However, wristwatches at the beginning were by no means formal, and pocket watches were still considered formal.
After working as a salaryman, he began working as a watch writer in 2004. He has been the editor-in-chief of "Chronos Japan" since its second issue. In 2016, he became the magazine's editor-in-chief. He currently hosts the popular program "Tik Tock Talk♪" (TOKYO FM, every Saturday from 1:00 am to 1:30 am).
Hirota I think so. Wristwatches at the time were more functional than pocket watches. Wristwatches probably became mainstream in 1930, as Professor (Gisbert L.) Bruner wrote, and I'm sure this is correct. In that year, the number of wristwatches shipped surpassed that of pocket watches. If that's the case, does that mean the dress watch format was established after that?
Tobita A classic watch that everyone knows, the Patek Philippe Calatrava 96, was released in 1932. It was clearly a dress watch.
Hirota Looking back, that makes sense, but at the time, there was no such thing as a sports watch or a casual watch. So, it's fair to say that all wristwatches at the time were dress watches.
Tobita I think that's a good way to think about it. Of course, chronograph wristwatches were already being made in the 1930s, but no one at the time would have defined chronographs as sports watches and simple wristwatches as dress watches.
Hirota On the other hand, when do you think sports watches first came out?
Tobita Occasion-specific watches probably began to appear after World War II, probably in the 1940s and 1950s.
Hirota That's right. Rolex's GMT Master and Submariner. However, at the time they were considered to be watches for professional use only. So when did sports watches become popular for the average person? In the 1960s, there was a surfing boom in America. That's when various manufacturers started making diver's watches, and I think that's when the sports watch genre began.
Tobita I see, surfing. That's an interesting perspective.
The long-standing belief that "thin is better"
Hirota So when do you think sports watches became popular and became mainstream in the market?
Tobita I entered the watch industry in the 1990s, when dress watches were still the mainstream for luxury watches. What can be said for sure about that time is that Rolex was strong, including the Oyster. The simplest models, such as the Air-King and Datejust, are questionable as to whether they can really be called dress watches.
Hirota I feel like I can't say.
Tobita That's true. When did the Oyster case become as bulky as it is today?
Hirota It must have already been about 34mm in diameter by at least the 1960s.
Tobita But by today's standards, something like the Explorer 1016 looks pretty dressy.
Hirota It's clearly different from today's rigid sports watches. Fast forward to around 2015, when luxury sports, or so-called "ragspo" watches, began to emerge.
Tobita Since everyday life itself has become much sportier than it was in the past, it's only natural that watches that fit that style would become mainstream. Going back to the 1990s, there was still a prevailing sentiment that "thin cases are great." In 1994, while working for Vacheron Constantin, they released the "Ultraflat" model.
Hirota Perhaps that was the end of the "thin is good" theory.
Tobita Since the end of the war, various brands have been competing to make thinner phones, but I think that was the last of them.
Hirota Back when dress watches were a huge category, thinness was an obvious requirement, as seen in this Breguet, one of Tobita's personal items.
Tobita This is an early model revived by François Baudet under Chaumet in the late 1980s, and is hand-wound.
Hirota 3210ですか？
Tobita Yes, it's 3210BA.
Hirota Although it is a reinterpretation of a classic, up to this point it is still a classic style as a dress watch.
Tobita Patek Philippe is from the 1940s to 1950s, and Vacheron Constantin is probably from the 1960s. Ebel's case itself is not thin, but they try to make it look thin. They even carve the sides of the lugs.
Hirota Yes, it's true. And here is Omega's renaissance.
Tobita This is a reissue from 1994. At this point, there is no sense of an attempt to make it look thinner.
Hirota Dress watches from the 1990s began to feature flat sapphire crystals, which meant that the middle case had to be thicker.
Tobita I don't think there were many curved sapphire crystals around back then.
Hirota This Jaeger-LeCoultre is also from the 1990s.
Tobita This is the second generation of the Master Control collection, from the late 1990s. The size and compactness are perfect.
Hirota As with Chopard's LUC, flat sapphire crystals and steep sides are typical of dress watches from the 1990s. Even in the world of dress watches, which may seem unchanging, there has been some evolution in design.
Tobita Looking back, there have been several "square-shaped booms." If we consider the dawn of dress watches to be the 1930s, there were far more shapes other than round at the time than there are today. In the latter half of a brand book published by Vacheron Constantin in the 1990s, there are endless black-and-white photographs of watches, and there are equal numbers of round and square watches.
Hirota Perhaps they were conscious of the American market, as there was a boom in square watches in the United States in the late 1920s.
Tobita That's interesting. Speaking of square watches, Franck Muller released a tonneau-shaped watch in the 1990s, Girard-Perregaux also released a tonneau-shaped watch in Richeville, and Cartier had the Tortue and Tank.
Hirota I see. What do you think about the Ebel you have this time as a dress watch?
Tobita As a fan, I can say that Ebel was truly amazing in the 1970s and 1980s, when it was run by the third generation Pierre-Alain Blum. At the time, I thought of it as a sports watch, but looking back now, I see that they also made a lot of dressy watches.
Hirota When I look at Ebel's 1911, I think the influence of Parmigiani Fleurier's Tonda PF is evident.
Tobita I see. That certainly seems like something you could say.
Prince Charles' Chronograph: A Turning Point
Hirota To put it bluntly, what do you think are the requirements for a dress watch?
Tobita I guess the most accurate answer is "changing with the times." When I was selling watches to customers as a salesperson in the 1990s, I used to use the following sales pitch: "You have sports watches and regular watches, right? But do you have a thin watch to wear for formal occasions?" Most people didn't have one. So I would recommend watches like the Audemars Piguet white gold extra-flat hand-wound watch I was carrying at the time, or the Jaeger-LeCoultre Master Control hand-wound watch.
Hirota It's just a nice watch.
Tobita However, the watch Prince Charles wore at Prince Harry's wedding in 2018 was a Parmigiani Fleurier chronograph. If that's the standard for the British royal family's dress code, then that style is fine for a dress watch these days.
Hirota A while ago, the requirements for a dress watch were two hands, a thin design, manual winding, a black leather strap, a gold case, a silver or white dial, and bar or Roman numerals.
Tobita When I asked people who have experience wearing white tie (formal attire for ceremonies and parties) what kind of watch they wear, they said, "In fact, many people don't wear a watch at all." So, I don't know what the correct answer is.
Hirota In any case, the Prince Charles incident was undoubtedly a turning point in the definition of a dress watch.
Are Thin Dress Watches Already an Endangered Species?
Hirota To be frank, I feel like all watches that aren't sports watches are now becoming dress watches.
Tobita I think in a sense the manufacturer is right when they describe "Luxpo" as "a watch that suits any modern occasion."
Hirota One watch can do it all. With that in mind, I feel that the Ebel 1911 was a pioneer of dress watches that were not gold and did not have leather straps.
Tobita I think Ebel and Cartier.
Hirota For a long time, thinness was a requirement for a dress watch, but now that has reversed. So, rather than giving up, we are now in a situation where we can say, "Whatever is fine?"
Tobita To begin with, there are no classic dress watches being made at the moment. Patek Philippe doesn't even make a thin two-hand watch with the Caliber 177.
Hirota I haven't made it yet.
Tobita There are no two-hand watches with Caliber 215 either. The Golden Ellipse is now only available in automatic winding. Vacheron Constantin does have the Patrimony two-hand watch with manual winding, though.
Hirota It came in two sizes, 40mm and 36mm in diameter.
Tobita Did Audemars Piguet's CODE 11.59 by Audemars Piguet have a thin two-hand watch?
Hirota No. Credor makes the two-hand manual winding watches. And then there's Cartier.
Tobita The Tank Louis Cartier is indeed hand-wound.
Hirota When you think about it this way, the "thin dresses" that were once mainstream are already an endangered species.
Tobita Will Piaget continue to make the Altiplano? I love it.
Hirota The 430P (hand-wound movement) model will no longer be available.
Tobita That's sad. The Ralph Lauren Slim Classic I brought with me today also comes in a 430p case. I love it so much that I have both the rose gold and white gold versions.
Hirota This is a great watch. I really hope it will be revived. I'm a fundamentalist, so I hope they will bring back the thin dress watch in a form that suits the current era.
Tobita In this age where anything goes, I think an ultra-thin, hand-wound watch with a leather strap would actually be fun.
Dress watches become free when they are separated from the outfit.
Hirota NAOYA HIDA & CO. watches are often talked about in terms of enthusiasts, and we in the media tend to think the same way. But actually, I think they are the legitimate successors of the "usable dress watch." In the past, there was an unwritten rule that "stainless steel should not be used in dress watches."
Tobita Gold or platinum, right?
Hirota Since the 1970s, and especially since the "luxury sports" boom of 2015, there has been a trend for various companies to strive for the most beautiful finish possible with stainless steel. I think that NAOYA HIDA & CO. watches are one example of the perfection of this trend. I think that it is precisely because of the improved finish that the concept of a "wristwatch that can be used in any situation" has been born.
Tobita That's right. I also think that technological innovation has enabled us to create small, highly water-resistant stainless steel watches, with a water resistance of 5 bar that is perfectly adequate for everyday use, even with our current level of experience.
Hirota Yes, I think the key to this evolved dress watch is that it is made with the latest technology and still has this appearance. It must be irresistibly attractive to users.
Tobita We are supported because we are an ultra-niche market, and if we leaned even a little towards the masses, we would perish.
Hirota But I want to take a fresh look at dress watches, starting from the details. Especially now that sports watches have become mainstream and dress watches have been shrunk. Where do you think dress watches will go in the future?
Tobita I feel that a new trend is already emerging. Our customers' style can be broadly divided into two types. One is people who wear bespoke suits with impeccable style. The other is people who dress casually, like T-shirts, sweatpants, and sneakers. However, when you ask them about their casual clothes, they tend to wear luxury brands like Brunello Cucinelli and Loro Piana. The latter type, that is, people who don't seem to be picky about matching their clothes with their watches, is on the rise.
Hirota In other words, dress watches, which have traditionally been discussed in the context of fashion, are now being taken out of that context.
Tobita That's right. In that case, even categorizing it as a dress watch or a sports watch becomes irrelevant.
Hirota If anything goes, then paradoxically, it's not unlikely that we'll see even more classic-style dress watches than ever before.
Tobita There is a good chance that an "Ultra Classic" model will be released, with modern updates to its everyday waterproofing and minimum durability.
Hirota The dress watch genre can be free because it is separated from clothing.
Tobita Probably. Personally, I think it would be even more interesting if they went back to the pocket watch (laughs).
Hirota That's even better (laughs). If we turn our focus to wristwatches, they will inherit the classic framework, but will be brushed up with current technology and evolve into dress watches that everyone can wear.
